This podcast provides listeners with basic definitions of reproductive rights and reproductive justice. By sharing wisdom from Professor Loretta Ross and Activist Nkenge Touré we recognize the work done and led by black women in this movement. With words of encouragement and hope, Ross and Touré help us see a path forward, through the darkness and into a brighter future.
Podcast Transcript
[Stevie Ordway]
Welcome, listeners. My name is Stevie Ordway.
Our topic today is…
with wisdom and hope.
Why reproductive justice matters?
Let’s start with some definitions.
What are reproductive rights?
Nike Ture defines these rites in her interview with Loretta Ross for the Smith College Voices of Feminism collection.
[Voice of Nkenge Touré]
Reproductive rights are rights that people have in relationship to their reproductive organs and their reproductive processes. You have certain rights that you are entitled to as far as how that gets dealt with. Reproductive choice is the assumption of the idea that you have these things that you have choices related to your reproduction choices to have, to not have, where you’ll have it, how you’ll have it, who you have it with when you’ll have it, what you’ll do. All of this assumes that you have these choices. Reproductive justice is the recognition that there are people whose rights in relationship to reproduction are denied or violated. It’s a recognition of the fact that there are people who don’t have choice that some people have in regard to that.
[Stevie Ordway]
Touré begins to describe reproductive justice concerning freedom of choice.
But there’s more to unpack here.
Professor Loretta Ross, in a conversation with me recently, defined reproductive justice as the following.
[Voice of Loretta Ross]
Well, reproductive rights is also synonymous with reproductive freedom and pro-choice. Because it’s the right to determine what you do with your body whether you decide to have sex or have sex get pregnant or continue a pregnancy, those kinds of things. And it works in tandem with the reproductive health framework, which is of course the service delivery framework. How do you go to your doctor, nurses, doulas, midwives, things like that. And then it also works in tandem with the reproductive justice framework, which is, of course, a human rights-based way of looking at the right to have a child, the right not to have a child, the right to bodily autonomy, and the right to raise your children in safe and healthy environments. And so we see those as the three pillars, reproductive health, reproductive rights, and reproductive justice as all of the things necessary for everyone to enjoy their human rights.
[Stevie Ordway]
Professor Ross connects the human rights framework to reproductive justice as they both pertain to the protection of individual and collective freedoms.
Why does it matter?
That’s next.
[Voice of Loretta Ross]
Well, of course, with the June Dobbs decision from 2022, we’re actually experiencing women dying. Because the medical professionals in the reproductive health scene are scared and they’re refusing to provide life-saving necessary interventions and procedures. Because they could go to jail for life or lose their medical licenses and stuff. And so we’re seeing a wave of unnecessary deaths in Georgia and Texas two of the most stringent states because…
these politicians trying to make medical decisions when they shouldn’t be. And so, yes, we are in a very dangerous time if you’re able to get pregnant and choose to get pregnant or accidentally got pregnant and don’t want to continue it. Because all of these or situations that could put your life at risk and deny you the necessary medical care that you need.
[Stevie Ordway]
With lives on the line, reproductive justice proves to be a battleground for human rights.
But has it always been this way?
[Voice of Loretta Ross]
Well, as a black feminist, I draw a through line between what happened when Dr. Marion J Sims
developed gynecological techniques on enslaved women’s bodies[indistinguishable] to how Henrietta Lacks’ DNA was taken without her permission and exploited to develop all kinds of treatments and stuff without compensation to her or her family to what’s going to happen when eggs are harvested in the future to develop treatments and technologies for you know very privileged people very privileged without the people whose eggs and DNA is being harvested and patented benefiting at all from these technologies so until we’ve changed the politics and the social views of who is vulnerable to being exploited for the benefit of the rich and powerful.
there’s a risk that we’ll be using these scientific advancements to upgrade our present day inequality.
[Stevie Ordway]
What does it mean to be vulnerable to the infringement of reproductive rights?
Who, specifically, is vulnerable?
[Voice of Nkenge Touré]
Women of color are bringing this idea of reproductive justice to the table because we are the ones that suffer from the lack of that justice as we suffer from the lack of those rights and the lack of those choices. So it is women of color that are bringing reproductive justice and entitlement to the table to the movement.
[Stevie Ordway]
What advice would you like to share with future generations of activists?
[Voice of Nkenge Touré]
I know that it is important to have a voice. You know, to have a voice. And to use your voice, to get the courage to use your voice, you know.
[Stevie Ordway]
How do we keep hope alive amid uncertainty?
[Voice of Loretta Ross]
I fundamentally believe in people power. And we have the numbers. We have the rightness of our cause. We have a long history of resistance. We have role models we can look up to. I love where young people are asking and acting out for their human rights, like the dreamers and the
Parkland survivors and who have bought the National Rifle Association to his knees. I mean, really?! A lot of things that older people have given up on ever-changing. Young people are doing it with climate change, all kinds of stuff. And so…Even if we lose this battle, we’re going to win the war.
[Stevie Ordway]
This has been with wisdom and hope, why reproductive justice matters.
I’m Stevie Ordway. Thanks for listening.
[This Little Light of Mine]
Let it shine!
Let it shine. Let it shine.
I’m gonna let it shine.
Tons!
Let it shine.
Interview with Loretta Ross: Full Transcript
Loretta Ross 0:34
Push record. Oh, it is recording.
Stevie Ordway 0:37
Yes, yes, I think, I hope, I hope. I just wanted to say a little bit about how I’m coming to this project, which is that I recently wrote an oral history paper or a paper based on the oral history of Nkenge Touré and–
Loretta Ross
Please share it with me so I can share it with her. Okay?
Stevie Ordway
I absolutely will. I really enjoyed watching and reading the transcript, though, particularly because of the relationship that you two had. I wrote a little bit about how, it seemed to really impact the experience of that, that history, to receive it in that way. So I really enjoyed that, and I will definitely pass it along. But I wanted to sort of based off some of the ideas that were talked about in that ask you how, how you would define reproductive rights, to somebody who hadn’t gone to an introduction to study of women and gender class.
Loretta Ross 1:48
Well, reproductive rights is also synonymous with reproductive freedom and pro-choice, because it’s the right to determine what you do with your body, whether you decide to have sex or get pregnant or continue a pregnancy, those kinds of things. And it works in tandem with the reproductive health framework, which is, of course, the service delivery framework. How do you go to your doctor, nurses, doulas, midwives, things like that. And then it also works in tandem with the reproductive justice framework, which is, of course, a human rights based way of looking at the right to have a child, the right not to have a child, the right to bodily autonomy, and the right to raise your children in safe and healthy environments. And so we see those as the three pillars, reproductive health, reproductive rights, and reproductive justice as all of the things necessary for everyone to enjoy their human rights.
Stevie Ordway 2:54
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for that answer. So are there any rights that you feel are being particularly ignored or violated when it comes to reproductive justice today?
Loretta Ross 3:10
Well of course, with the June Dobbs decision from 2022, we’re actually experiencing women dying because medical professionals in the reproductive health scene are scared, and they’re refusing to provide life-saving necessary interventions and procedures because they could go to jail for life or lose their medical licenses and stuff. And so we’re seeing a wave of unnecessary deaths in Georgia and Texas, which are the most stringent state because of these politicians trying to make medical decisions when they shouldn’t be. And so yes, we are in a very dangerous time if you’re able to get pregnant and choose to get pregnant, or accidentally got pregnant and don’t want to continue it, because all of these are situations that could put your life at risk and deny you the necessary medical care that you need.
Stevie Ordway 4:17
Yeah, I’ve appreciated your talks that I’ve witnessed over the last couple of months about reproductive futurism. Could you talk just a little bit about that concept?
Loretta Ross 4:32
Reproductive Justice Futurism is a concept that I’m exploring along with Professor Jallicia Jolly from Amherst(College) about how we can bring the black feminist analysis of reproductive justice to all of the incoming and even pre-existing technologies that deal with reproduction and longevity and disease prevention, those kinds of topics. We fear that the preoccupation with protecting the right to abortion is obscuring the urgency of talking about things like assisted reproductive technologies like IBF or in our PGD pre-implantation diagnosis, or surrogacy all of the research that’s being done around longevity, the whole market for eggs that is being developed and is truly exploiting a number of vulnerable people. So these are really urgent conversations that not only are they not happening amongst the people most likely to be affected by these technologies, but there seems to be an alliance made between billionaires who want to benefit from the technologies and scientists who are acting rather amorally about whether or not they can continue to exploit vulnerable people for the benefit of the powerful and the rich. We need to have this conversation.
Stevie Ordway 6:19
Could you talk a bit more about when you say vulnerable people to these technologies, who might be most vulnerable? Do you think?
Loretta Ross 6:31
Well, as a black feminist, I draw through line between what happened when Doctor Marion J Sims developed gynecological techniques on enslaved women’s bodies, and [indistiguishable] to how Henrietta Lacks DNA was taken without her permission and exploited to develop all kinds of treatments and stuff without compensation to her or her family, to what’s going to happen when eggs are harvested in the future to develop treatments and technologies for, you know, very privileged people, without the people whose eggs and DNA is being harvested and patented, benefiting it all from these technologies. So until we’ve changed the politics and the social views of who is vulnerable to being exploited for the benefit of the rich and powerful. There’s a risk that we’ll be using these scientific advancements to upgrade our present-day inequality.
Stevie Ordway 7:35
Yeah, absolutely
Loretta Ross 7:39
And I think we need to offer a reproductive justice analysis of what’s at risk, not only for the state of the vulnerable people but for the sake of humanity, because they’re even modifying human DNA in a way that these modifications will be inheritable. So people are changing the DNA of the whole human race, yeah, without the necessary oversight. And there’s a lot of unpredictable and probably unintended consequences with doing that.
Stevie Ordway 8:15
Do you think that the desire to–it always just kind of makes me think of the phrase, you know, play god–do you think that these rich and powerful people’s desire to do that comes from a fear of what many are saying as we are very near to plurality? Racial plurality. I’m curious if you feel that there might be a correlation between some of the more aggressive tactics that have been happening to suppress women or reproductive rights in order to sort of safeguard that.
Loretta Ross 8:54
Well, I think that they are fearful of being numerically overwhelmed. I mean, I think that’s why they cheat because they can’t compete demographically, and so there’s that. But I also think that they are feeling that they deserve the benefits of longevity research, of disease prevention and avoidance, that they have the great genes that should be preserved, because they’re billionaires, so obviously they have great genes, according to them, and everybody else is Gene deprived, I guess. So eventually we’re going to have the gene-rich against the gene-poor. And as one scientist put it, and once we get to that stage, the gene-rich will have as much interest in having sex with the gene-poor as we do around having sex with the monkey right now. And so this is where I think we’re headed, without guard rails, without real scrutiny. And certainly without the necessary government oversight and regulation that should be taking place, because they’re betting on their smart brains dictating the future of humanity, and I don’t care for that bet, because just because you’re great at making chips for cars doesn’t mean you’re great at playing god.
Stevie Ordway 10:21
Do you think that there is a government-based solution? Do you think that there should be more governmental oversight? Would that aid in the struggle currently?
Loretta Ross 10:36
Well, the government has what we call negative and positive human rights obligations. The negative human rights obligations are not to interfere in our decision-making or dictate how we should vote or how we should worship or what our speech should be, those kinds of things, but they also have positive obligations, and that is to make sure that when we choose to exercise our freedom and rights, that they are safe, affordable and accessible. And I compare that to flying in an airplane, because the government can’t tell us whether to fly, which airline to use, which city to use, but they do still have a positive obligation number one, to make sure those planes are safe and don’t come plummeting out of the sky. Number two, to make sure that there’s sufficient competition so that we can afford the airline prices and that we’re not caught up in a monopoly where we only have one airline to choose from, and they have an obligation to make sure that airports are accessible so that we’re not restricted to Los Angeles, San Francisco and Miami, it’s our airports of destination, but there’s still service to Allegheny, Pennsylvania and Lubbock, Texas, and those smaller places that are might not be as profitable as the big cities, but the people in there deserve services too. And so safe, affordable, and accessible is the role of the government. And so when it comes to reproductive technologies, they still have those positive obligations to make sure these technologies are safe, affordable, and accessible.
Stevie Ordway 12:20
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I definitely agree, and I hope that moving forward, we have more assistance in that way. But I definitely am feeling, I think a lot of people like myself, included in my class, are very nervous about the election, and I think that it’s hard to sort of not imagine that there won’t be a reaction either way. To sort of bridge away from reproductive rights for a second. But maybe you want to tie reproductive rights into this as well. How do you think the runoff from the election might influence our political climate?
Loretta Ross 13:07
Well, like most right-thinking people, we certainly hope that Kamala Harris wins, because if Trump ekes out a declared victory, then we’re in for a very dark period for our society and the world, because he is definitely a fascist, and so he will be doing those things that enrich his crony buddies and in Wall Street and the people who refuse or criticize them or endorse Harris or seeing evidence of that, that we will certainly lose a lot of our freedoms, and we’ll be walking around in greater fear of what this unchecked power can do to our lives and to the world. And so there’s a lot of risk at this election, but I have to honestly say that I think she’s going to win.
Stevie Ordway
Me too.
Loretta Ross
I think because I feel a huge upsurge of positivity and joy and support for her. And even my scientific brain is trying to say, wait a moment. She is pulling women Republicans and male Republicans from his base, but that pool is not going in the other direction, because he’s counting on disaffected rogue votes. But these guys can’t even be responsible enough to use a damn condom, much less show-up.
Stevie Ordway
Yeah.
Loretta Ross 14:37
These are not what you call people you can rely on for a lot of serious decisions, right? And so I actually think that they will have to cheat, they will have to suppress the vote. They’ll have to interfere with the ballot counting. He will prematurely declare victory that’s undeserved and unearned. And. So they will do everything in their power. And of course, he’s got the Supreme Court, the conservatives on the Supreme Court, and his back pocket, yeah, and so there’s still a lot of risk. We could win and still lose because of the way they break the game. But I still remain hopeful.
Stevie Ordway 15:18
Yeah. I mean, could you talk a little bit more about that? What are some ways that you remain hopeful today?
Loretta Ross 15:27
I fundamentally believe in people power, and we have the numbers. We have the rightness of our cause. We have a long history of resistance. We have role models we can look up to. I love the way young people are acting and acting out for their human rights, like the Dreamers and the Parkland survivors–who have bought the National Rifle Association to its knees! I mean, really, a lot of things that older people have given up on, ever-changing young people are doing it with climate change, all kinds of stuff. And so even if we lose this battle, we’re going to win the war.
Stevie Ordway 16:12
I really appreciate that message. I really appreciate your time. I had the opportunity to take White Supremacy in the Age of Trump(SWG 241) with you my very first semester at Smith…
Loretta Ross
I thought you look familiar
Stevie Ordway
…and to be in my senior year and have the opportunity to still see you around campus and even be in another class with you(Thinking About Race IDP 102), and all of that has just been such a delight. So I really appreciate your your time.
Loretta Ross 16:38
Well thanks for interviewing me, and good luck with your podcast.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Finding Connections Within Reflection: An Understanding of the Oral History of Nkenge Touré
Link to PDF : file:///Users/sordway/Downloads/Finding%20Connections%20Within%20Reflection.pdf
Citations
Dawson, Shay. “Nkenge Touré” National Women’s History Museum, 2022-2024. https://www.womenshistory.org/education-resources/biographies/nkenge-toure
Hamer, Fannie Lou. “This Little Light of Mine.” The Songs My Mother Taught Me, Smithsonian Folkways Recordings, Released on: 2015-06-30. Video, 3 min., 7 sec. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhiV6DB_h_8
Holland, Bynn. “The ‘Father of Modern Gynecology’ Performed Shocking Experiments on Enslaved Women” History Channel, Updated: December 4, 2018 Original: August 29, 2017. https://www.history.com/news/the-father-of-modern-gynecology-performed-shocking-experiments-on-slaves.
Minetti, Erika T. MS. “Ethical Challenges in Medical Research: Henrietta Lacks and the HeLa Cell Line” Association For Women In Science, January 26, 2024. https://awis.org/resource/ethical-challenges-medical-research-henrietta-lacks-hela-cell-line/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA3ZC6BhBaEiwAeqfvymESqx129avESgGrk4mYAVaWfHHUU1xGwKI2mPJ2o1cPJxAZNbz-oBoCDssQAvD_BwE
Nkenge Touré. Interview by Loretta Ross, Transcript and audio of video recording, December 4-5, 2004 and March 23, 2005. Voices of Feminism Oral History Project, Sophia Smith Collection.
Parmar, Pratibha. “A Place For Rage.” Documentary. 53 min., Channel Four Television, 1991.
Ross, Loretta. Interview by Stevie Ordway. October 31, 2024. Audio, 16:38.
Ross, Loretta., and Ricky Solinger. Reproductive Justice: An Introduction. University of California Press, 2017.
